Author and expert in menstrual health Maisie Hill joins Jameela this week to discuss the different seasons of the menstrual cycle, how different bodies respond differently to hormones, why perimenopause is a space to process the expectations on people socialized as women, why we are so bad at diagnosing autism in women, and more. You can find Maisie Hill's books - Period Power and Perimenopause Power - on her website and wherever books are sold: https://www.maisiehill.com/ You can listen to Maisie's podcast - Period Power with Maisie Hill - Wherever you get your podcasts You can follow Maisie on Instagram @_maisiehill_ and Twitter @MaisieHill_
Author and expert in menstrual health Maisie Hill joins Jameela this week to discuss the different seasons of the menstrual cycle, how different bodies respond differently to hormones, why perimenopause is a space to process the expectations on people socialized as women, why we are so bad at diagnosing autism in women, and more.
You can find Maisie Hill's books - Period Power and Perimenopause Power - on her website and wherever books are sold: https://www.maisiehill.com/
You can listen to Maisie's podcast - Period Power with Maisie Hill - Wherever you get your podcasts
You can follow Maisie on Instagram @_maisiehill_ and Twitter @MaisieHill_
Jameela [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil. I'm really excited because I think you're going to love today's episode. I can't wait to hear what you think about it and I want to read all your messages about it. It's one of my favorites so far of this entire podcast, and I've been trying to book this guest for ages. But she's so busy and important that it was really hard when she finally did sit down with me. She did not disappoint, and that's why the episodes a bit long, because it's just so good. There was nothing we could cut. It's just an empowering goldmine of information. Whoever you are, whatever your age, whatever your gender. Her work and her words are for you because she writes about things that happen to pretty much half the population, and so even if you're not part of that half, to understand them in their daily experience is only to live in a more connected, empathetic, interesting and better world. Her name is Maisie Hill and she is a great writer and great podcaster, and it was her book Period Power that first introduced me to her. Now I'm not going to lie. When I first heard that it was a whole book about periods, I was like, No, I don't think I want to read. That sounds disgusting, but that's because I'm a product of a deeply misogynist, patriarchal world that taught me that my periods are less like gross, inconvenient, terrible thing that I must keep a secret from, not just everyone else, but also almost myself, I've been encouraged to never look at it just to shun my periods and kind of survive them. Maisie Hill teaches you to use your periods and your hormonal cycle to thrive through your period. She also explains to us so many different things that many of us are experiencing through our periods that our gynecologists and our friends and our mothers don't tell us about. We don't talk about this enough. And I really didn't understand that until I saw how much her work revolutionized the way that I look at everything, we talk about periods, we talk about hormones, she explains everything in such a funny and witty and interesting, clear way and how you can use your hormones and periods to completely revolutionize your existence. We also talk about perimenopause. If that's something that some of you are wondering about or you have people you know who are experiencing it. And we talk a lot about patriarchy and we talk a lot about the reasons behind why we don't know more about our bodies. And at the end of this podcast, unexpectedly, we also then shift gears into talking about autism, which is something that I've wanted to discuss on this podcast for a really long time. And it just so happens that one of my favorite authors is also autistic. That's Maisie Hill. And she spoke about it on her podcast and has gone on to change a lot of people's lives yet again. But now in a different way. Talking about a subject that in particular, women do not speak about enough. Women are hugely underdiagnosed when it comes to autism in general, neurodivergency, ADHD, etc. and Maisie is on a mission to destigmatize the conversation and encourage people to go and seek diagnosis if they have some of the symptoms that are very different from what a lot of us have understood the symptoms of autism to be. And so we go into great depth about that. Maisie also wonders if I may be autistic and we talk about that. And I just want to be clear from the offset that when I am finding similarities between her and me or I am resonating with the things she's telling me. I am not trying to diagnose myself with anything. I'm not a doctor, even though I'm Indian. No, sorry. And so it's just more. She's illuminating me as to thinking about my brain in a way that I haven't thought about it or given a break before. And so maybe at some point I will go to a doctor about this, but generally, I don't feel in a rush to do that. There's a lot going on in the world, but I'm very excited to learn more about it so I can better understand so many people who are only finally getting that diagnosis. And it is a great honor to have someone come on and be so open about so many things, including something that is so not talked about enough and still so stigmatized. So it's just everything, everything in this episode. Please listen to it. Please go and buy all of her books. Please listen to her podcast and please tell me how much you now love the excellent Maisie Hill. Oh. Oh, boy, I have been waiting for this day for a very long time. Maisie Hill, welcome to I Weigh. How are you?
Maisie [00:05:06] I'm fantastic. I'm thrilled to be here.
Jameela [00:05:09] I'm so I was like, I'm starstruck. Honestly, I'm starstruck. I first heard about you on my podcast. It was like the second episode. I think maybe a year and a half ago, Aisling Bea came on as a guest and was an astonishing guest and told me all about how your book had changed her life, your book Period Power. And since then, I have just been fascinated. She got me hooked, and now I've listened to your podcast, I've read your book, I've listened to all of your interviews and you have revolutionized the way I think about a huge part of my life. So thank you for that.
Maisie [00:05:47] Oh, you're welcome. Can I take you around with me everywhere I go with an introduction like this?
Jameela [00:05:51] One of my favorite things regarding your work within Period Power in understanding your periods and honoring your own needs and the needs of your body is how much you walk the walk. I remember when we were trying to schedule this the first one you had to think you had to move according to your cycle because you were like, No, it's this part of my cycle, therefore for like it's not going to be appropriate for me to appear on a podcast. And I was honestly stunned. I was stunned. Not in a bad way. In an awe way. I was like, Jesus Christ, she really lives by her own rules, by her own advice that that was a part in your cycle where you knew it wouldn't be best for you to come on and do something like this. So therefore you moved according to let you run your schedule kind of according to your cycle, correct?
Maisie [00:06:42] Yeah, totally. And you know, not everything is movable, but a lot of things are movable, and I like to kind of test out the boundaries of what's possible when it comes to cycle related stuff. But yeah, we'd actually realized there was a problem with my calendar sinking with my assistant's calendar. So she wasn't spotting when my period was due. And suddenly I was like, Oh my goodness, we're recording the podcast at the start of my period. I could do that like I could do it. But would it come at a cost? And that's like, sometimes what I'm always thinking about is like, I don't necessarily have a, you know, I don't have debilitating period pain like I used to, you know, 10, 20 years ago, I would have been like, Oh, no, there's no way I can do anything on the first day of my period. Now I can do those things, but it's really important for me to have that downtime and to be resting and taking care of myself and doing still working but other kinds of work. Whereas, you know, if I come on a podcast, sometimes I might have trouble finishing my sentences because, you know, low hormones at the start of your period. So today's much more suitable to that because it's day nine of my cycle. So I have estrogen on my side firing on all cylinders, even though my five year old was up multiple times in the night. But that's what hormones do. They give us resilience so.
Jameela [00:08:02] We're going to get into every detail of that because I honestly think it could change so many people's lives. One of the reasons why I think I never I have a lot of complicated feelings of it, like from years of misinformation, but I think that there's been a part of me that has never looked into my cycle or my period because of how long periods have been stigmatized by men in a multitude of ways right by patriarchy. And women have also, you know, participated in the I did by just denying that I even have my periods. First of all, there's just so little information out there, and gynecology is still a way behind where it should be by now. But also for so long, women have had our feelings or our needs kind of dismissed over our periods. Oh she's probably on her period. And so it's become this thing that has been considered some sort of a weakness, something some some sort of a thing that holds us back. And therefore, I think it's made a lot of us almost have like pride or self-protection not want to admit, well, my periods coming soon or I've got my period so therefore I can't do this amount of work like the idea. It feels like inherently it felt before I read your book weak to me to admit that I was able to be swayed by this monthly cycle. And so I think a lot of people maybe feel that way where they don't want to admit that they have PMS and that PMS isn't real. And I don't know. We've been kind of made to feel crazy and our feelings have been made to feel and validated. Our existence has been made to feel slightly invalidated by this giant tidal wave of change that happens every single month to us. We've been taught to just sort of like, be stoical about it. And so I was I was wondering if that's something that you ever felt before you started to get into the work around periods?
Maisie [00:10:01] Yeah, definitely, and I think it's something every once in a while I still come up against in myself and then I'm able to look at and explore and work on a deeper level. But I think you're right, this is like a common issue that women and people with periods have when they are kind of starting to form a relationship with their cycle or starting to look at how they could work with their hormones. And for me, I just like to compare it to a 24 hour day cycle. You know, no one in the world has any issue with the fact that some people, when they wake up, are a bit groggy. And then, you know, maybe it takes them a while to get going and get their energy and kind of get going with the day. And then maybe they feel quite social at lunchtime. Right. So you meet up with a friend, call someone, do something along those lines. Maybe in the afternoon your energy goes down a bit and then towards the end of the day, you just want to finish things up and go home and relax or switch off from work. And then at some point you get tired. All of that is driven by hormones, but no one has a problem with that. But as soon as we put that in the context of the menstrual cycle, which is pretty much the same kind of behavior shifts in energy mood, all of these things, just because it's like in the female body and because it's to do with hormones that are produced by the ovaries suddenly is problematic or is different, or we have to consider it differently.
Jameela [00:11:31] It's a burden. Yeah, I really want to thank you because it's changed the way I talk in my house because I live with a bunch of boys like like soon to be four boys, but it's been three up until now. And so now I will just let them know where I'm at. You know, a week before my period, especially the the two deadly days before my period, just fuck off, just fuck off away from me so that we can avoid anyone getting hurt. And I'm on my period. I feel about and I started to actually, you know, welcome sympathy or hot water bottles or cups of tea. And they have been so wonderfully responsive to that of like, Oh shit, she's going through this massive change. It's very, very hard for her. She's clearly fucking exhausted. That is a massive change in her mood or productivity level. And they're nice to me about it. All this time I just thought that men would roll their eyes or make fun of me for being a falling victim to this monthly change. Honestly, it's just it's been so fucking handy.
Maisie [00:12:30] It is. It's really handy. And you know, I've heard from so many people who read Period Power. Well, actually, they bought Period Power, had it on their nightstand and then their male partner took the book and read it first and then gave it to them. And I think that's really amazing. And what I know of the men in my life and the men I have known is that they tend to look just like a framework. They just want to know what's going on and what they can do about it, you know? And there's a time when them being fixers is infuriating and there's a time when them being fixes and problem solvers is really helpful. So yeah, they just want to know. And as soon as they like have that understanding, it really shifts things like for the person experiencing the cycle, but also shifts things in the relationship dynamics. And I get messages all the time, from like people screenshotting conversations with their male partners saying, you know, Oh, I know you're feeling this way today, but just remember spring's around the corner, you know, you know, you're going to be feeling a bit differently in a week's time. So how about we talk about this again now? And it's just, you know, when we can bring the cycle into all of our lives, whether we're talking about personal relationships, romantic relationships, our work lives, our relationship with ourselves, then, you know, it just is such a powerful thing to consider. And when we're not considering it, you know, we're just missing out big time.
Jameela [00:13:59] 100 percent. And also just to be clear, for anyone is listening to this who maybe isn't familiar with Maisie's work in this episode and throughout Maisie's work is when we've just started off by talking about the ways in which a period can be cumbersome. But also what we're going to talk about is incredible information about your cycle that can actually lead to you being your most efficient and powerful and alert. We're going to talk about learning how to manage your cycle and manage your life around your cycle. Respect your cycle and use it to your best advantage. Will you explain to us the seasons of the cycle, please? You mentioned spring just now.
Maisie [00:14:37] Yes. Okay. So the seasons of the cycle that is this is a framework that was developed by Alexandra Pope and Shani Hugo Wurlitzer. And I trained with them and basically, they identified that each phase of the menstrual cycle equates to a season. And this gives us a really accessible way of talking about the different phases of the cycle. So the time around when you have your period, when you're menstruating is your winter, then the phase kind of running up to ovulation. So maybe once your period is finished and just as you get closer to ovulation, is your spring the time around, ovulation is your summer and then the premenstrual phase is your autumn. So the what's important to know is that these seasons aren't distinct phases of time. So some people will have an autumn like a premenstrual phase that will last two weeks. For others, it will be a week. So this is all about getting to know your experience of your cycle and tracking your cycle, getting to know how you are affected by your hormones in terms of your energy, your mood, your behavior, and then you start to notice when you are in each of those seasons and what each season's experience is like for you.
Jameela [00:15:54] Is there a common denominator in how we at least feel during those parts of our cycles, like everyone, might have experienced them for less time or more time, but do each of these make us feel a certain type of way like because I know that before my period, I mean today, my period is due yesterday. It hasn't come. So today I feel absolutely heinous. Honestly, I just feel like my head is a cloud. I'm so tired and I have felt like dog shit for the last couple of days. So is that for a lot of people, to all people feel like a little bit more fatigued?
Maisie [00:16:29] Yeah, that's pretty common. I would say there are, you know, the experiences vary. Everyone has their particular home in the cycle where they feel most like themselves, most able to get on with things. For some people, that's around ovulation when hormones are peaking, for others that can be premenstrual. So though there is lots of variation, there are kind of typical patterns that I see, though. And one of those is that at the points in the cycle where we have low hormone levels,
Jameela [00:16:56] when is that?
Maisie [00:16:57] Where you are now. Yeah, so right before your period is due. So for some people, that might be one day. For others, it might be three days. That's when hormone levels plummets. And that kind of signals the start signals to your body, the start of your period. And so in those days, hormone levels are low. That's when we can feel tired and be quite introspective, maybe feel quite teary and vulnerable, and I just tend to just want to give up. All sorts of things, they're just like, Oh, what's the point? But I know, because I know that's the point in my cycle where my hormone levels are low. I know it's that and I can have compassion for myself in that experience and just be like, Oh yeah, of course I'm feeling this way. My hormone levels are low makes total sense, rather than making it a problem about me and who I am in the world.
Jameela [00:17:54] Yeah. And how does that impact your mental health?
Maisie [00:17:57] Oh, hugely. I mean, I have quite a history of depression and self-harm and things when I was younger, and I think if I'd have had this information, then. Maybe that wouldn't have happened, or to the extent it would have happened, and this is why it's really important that when we are talking about mental health that we are including in the conversation, what's going on with hormones, what's going on with the cycle and certainly tracking it to see if there's a relationship between the two. More often than not, there is so.
Jameela [00:18:29] 100 percent. I mean, men, when a man hasn't had a wank for a couple of days, you cannot tell me he isn't impacted by his hormones. I see it all the time, you can tell when someone hasn't had a wank or a bang in a while. You know, like men are completely governed by hormones in a way that we just sort of don't discuss. And it's just women because we happen to bleed. It's turned into this big, disgusting, problematic psycho phase that we go into. Can you imagine men having to handle like cis men having to handle this issue?
Maisie [00:19:01] Well, exactly. That's why I think, Oh, I just wish all cis men had the experience of one period, one cycle in their life just so that they know. So you know this premenstrual just before your period starts, your hormone levels can be low, but the same can be true at the start of your period. So the first few days, hormone levels are quite low, relatively low, at least. So it can kind of feel for some people like they're wading through, like treacle and struggling to get going. Of course, some people might have symptoms that can be quite debilitating around the time of their period. For others, the start of the period can feel like such relief, right? Particularly, I'm thinking of people with premenstrual dysphoric disorder or people who experienced PMS. It can be like, Oh, finally, my periods come, and it's like that Valve has been released.
Jameela [00:19:53] Yeah, I definitely look forward always to my period coming because I feel I could get my energy back. I also don't sleep in the week before my period, which I didn't ever recognize was a pattern until I read your book.
Maisie [00:20:04] This is all to do with the hormonal shifts that happen premenstrually. And so in the second half of the cycle, we have progesterone rising and it tends to peak around the week before your period is due. And so that's typically when you can get the best sleep, actually. So there's like this effect that progesterone has where it soothes and it calms the nervous system. So that's a great time to capitalize on sleep. And because you can fall asleep quicker, you sleep deeper, you feel more rested in the morning. So that's when I'm like, There's no chance I'm working late and I'm getting to sleep with the book. We're not staying up watching something on Netflix. I'm like making the most out of this because I also struggle premenstrually with sleep. But then I know I just have to really take care of my sleep hygiene and the things that I do in the evening. And there's other things that I use like herbal support, for example, to help me sleep because I need my sleep.
Jameela [00:21:03] I need my sleep a lot of the time, like if I'm asleep because of anxiety at some other part of my cycle, then you know, something's kept me awake. Or I've had too much coffee in the morning. Then I feel like I feel like shit the next day. Like, I'm too old now to not sleep most of the time. But there are a couple of days in my cycle where when I don't sleep, I feel absolutely fine. I don't even need a coffee in the morning. I'm energized.
Maisie [00:21:26] You can get by.
Jameela [00:21:27] It's ridiculous. It's the first few days of the winter. The autumn. Sorry, remind me the just before your period is the autumn.
Maisie [00:21:36] Yes.
Jameela [00:21:37] Ok good. So, so the first few days of my autumn, I I have such horrific insomnia, but it just doesn't freak me out anymore. I used to really worry about it. But now I realize, Oh no, I'm absolutely fine. Like this is what my body wants to do. I do think it's important, as you say, to like, take extra measures to try to avoid that sleep deprivation, because that may be why I feel like such shit then at the end of my autumn, just before my period, I feel like I haven't had proper sleep for about a week.
Maisie [00:22:07] Yeah, so that's the thing. Sometimes there's that lag time. And that's why I think with any menstrual cycle related symptom, we always want to be looking at what's happening for the whole of the cycle, rather than just the specific time when that symptom hits. So we're just looking at everything together.
Jameela [00:22:23] So the seasons that make us feel like almost like our most alert and productive. You talk a lot about that and that really altered the way that I now manage my schedule. But I still wasn't fully giving into it until literally about a month ago when I watched you just be like, No, I'm not doing this because this is a tricky time for me in my menstrual cycle. You laugh as if you're embarrassed, but I hope you're not because I thought it was honestly one of the most.
Maisie [00:22:47] No not at all.
Jameela [00:22:48] OK, good, it was so empowering. But now I think I'm going to be more dedicated than ever to like letting my management know, letting other people know that actually you need to respect the cycle that has an ungodly hold over my life. I shouldn't be forced to just like, I don't know, like power through, I should use it to my advantage. So when would you say is most likely to be the period where the point where rather we feel the most productive and what is causing that and when is it most likely to be?
Maisie [00:23:20] Good question. So this I would say again, it varies from person to person, but typically we'd be talking about that pre ovulation phase and around ovulation because. So the start. Let's backtrack the start of each cycle is day one of your period and then from day three onwards, say like third day of your period upwards all the way to ovulation, estrogen is gradually increasing. Some people noticed that really acutely, like for me, as long as I'm not feeling too depleted and tired generally in life. Day three, it's like someone's flicked an on switch on my brain, and I just feel like I'm back online. I think clearly I my memory's there, my verbal recall is there and I'm coming up with all sorts of ideas and I have a surge of energy. Some people don't feel that until later on in the cycle, but some people really notice it on day three. So then what we have is estrogen gradually increasing as we head towards ovulation and then around the time it peaks is also when testosterone arrives in the scene and we get like a surge of testosterone for a couple of days, and the two of them are pretty powerful together as hormones. And this is when we can maybe feel a bit more daring, a bit more sexy, a bit flirty, quite social. So what's happening across this first half of the cycle is we're often more interested in the outer world, whereas the second half of the cycle when we're premenstrual, we tend to be more interested in our inner worlds and kind of laying low these kinds of things. But basically first half of the cycle, your hormones want you to go out, find a mate, have sex and procreate, whether you want to or not. So your hormones are driving that kind of behavior so they will make you more chatty and make you check other people out.
Jameela [00:25:16] They make you Google Keanu Reeves more often, you know what I mean?
Maisie [00:25:19] All of these things and they don't want you sat at your desk doing work and they don't want you in the kitchen. So around the time that these hormones peak, we often have like a surge in sexual desire and a decrease in appetite like appetite for food, not sexual appetite. Because your hormones are like, who cares about what's in the fridge and cooking food? Get out there and find someone to have sex. This is your chance. So because of that, we see how estrogen and testosterone affect everything in our bodies. And when people be like, Oh, do hormones do all these things? I'm like, Listen, wait til you go through menopause and you have no hormones left and then come back and tell me about what hormones do and don't do because we have hormone receptors littered throughout our bodies, our brains, you know, just literally everywhere in the body has these hormone receptors, so everything is affected by them.
Jameela [00:26:16] And so with premenstrual issues like, for example, I always have painful spots on my face the week before my period. I have big, painful boobs. Boobs honestly feel like they're trying to kill me and refuse to get into any of my clothes are just very disobedient breasts, pre period. And and the the depression that I feel in the days pre period. Is there anything that we can do to try to I don't want to say manipulate, but just try to alter any of those things, you know, the terrible like I started getting migraines in the last year just for two days before my period. That's never happened to me before. As I'm reaching, I guess I'm on my way to 40 now. I'm 35. It's suddenly my period feels like it's getting more intense, like it was at the very beginning when I first got periods, they're very intense. They kind of mellowed out in my 20s. And now, as I'm edging towards probably the end of my fertility, it's it's a harrowing experience at times worse period pains I've ever had. What do I? Well, is there anything I can do that we can do?
Maisie [00:27:27] There's loads of things that can be done, and as you know, in my book, there's like heaps and heaps of strategies there. But what's really important to know is that a lot of these symptoms are hormonally driven. But what can often happen is that someone like fitting into their clothes one week and then the next week, they're not because they have bloating or breast chest tenderness going on and. You know, if you're not paying attention to your psyche, you might not realize is your hormones are impacting things, so our hormones? There's various things to consider. There's like the level of the hormones, your particular sensitivity to those hormones and then the relationship between different hormones. And often what can be going on with these symptoms is that there are hormonal imbalances are creating the symptoms. So there are things a kind of efforts you can do in the moment to improve things and on the day as it's happening. But we also want to be looking at the underlying issue of why there are all these hormonal imbalances in the first place. And you know, at the age of 35, you're kind of bang on track I would say for when these things do start to become more of an issue, you know, existing symptoms can become exaggerated, new ones can emerge. And really, this is where we just start to see the hormonal landscape shifting as we move into perimenopause. That doesn't mean anyone else who's 35 and starting to freak out about this as you're listening. Doesn't mean that you're going through perimenopause, but your just hormones are starting to shift. The relationship to them is starting to shift. And often we're kind of seeing the impacts of what we did or didn't do in our 20s and 30s starting to affect us.
Jameela [00:29:24] Wait what in our 20s and 30s can impact our periods later. What about having a one month long house party where I lived almost exclusively on Haribo cola bottles. Could that have impacted how I feel now? Is that why I have got such a fucking bad headache?
Maisie [00:29:43] Yes, you should never have done that, basically. No, no, no, no. It's never is. It's very it's unlikely to be like kind of one off events like that. But kind of more generally, we could be talking about dietary things, our alcohol intake, drug intake, and stress levels. Also, you know, sleep work patterns and overworking, particularly over exercising even, you know, so it can we can swing both ways. It's not always always about not exercising enough. Sometimes it can be over exercising.
Jameela [00:30:20] Yeah. Now that I've come to understand that it's my cycle, not actually my brain telling me I really don't want to exercise today because I'm feeling extra fatigued. I push through and just do anyway and often feel better afterwards. But should I not be doing that? Should I be listening to my body? Because just because I can understand that it's maybe my hormones telling me to stay in bed today, I always think, No, I know what this is. I'm going to override this stoically. But actually, should I be laying down? Please say I should be lying down.
Maisie [00:30:48] You should be lying down. But in all seriousness, I think, you know, for you and for anyone else really, you, you are the expert in your body. And the best thing to do is to track things and to be a bit of a scientist with yourself and to see what impact does it have. So I have been doing this recently because I've started doing different forms of exercise, so I've been testing out like, Well, how do I feel if I do a Peloton ride the day before my period is due? Like, does that have an impact on things and. I think it's important to also look at the context of everything else going on, so I might feel I'm, you know, I'm quite prone to feeling tired and depleted. That's just like my constitution and my tendency. If I'm like eating lots of nourishing food, if I'm not overdoing it at work, then I'm probably like, Yeah, I can do a fucking Peloton ride today. Let's go for it. And I can kind of push myself, give myself a bit of motivation to do it. But if that's a week where I maybe my kids being sick and I've needed to work late in order to kind of juggle what's going on with my working week, then I would be like, You know what, I'm just going to skip that and I'm going to rest. So I think it's important to just test these things out and to also know that our experience of our cycle changes. So as we age, as the circumstances of our life, start to shift once worked really well for us and was something that was never a problem can actually become a problem. So this is an ongoing relationship and an ongoing conversation. It's not like you come up with this perfectionist plan of what your cycle should look like and how you should behave and always stick to that. It's an ongoing conversation,
Jameela [00:32:38] and obviously you go into detail in your book, but just anyone who hasn't read it before. Could you just give me a kind of rough summary of how if someone's listening to this today, they might just start tracking their period? What things should they be writing down and looking out for?
Maisie [00:32:52] OK, well, I can put it really simply, if they just go to my website. MaisieHill.com: There's a free guide with a cycle tracker that has all the steps in it and some charts that you can start using. But there are multiple ways that you can do it, and what's important is that you just do it. A lot of people hold off on starting because they're thinking, What's the perfect way? What's the perfect app that I should use? And, you know, just get going because every day that you wait is a day that you don't have data. And I really encourage people to see it like this, that you are collecting data about yourself. And with that in mind, you want to be careful with some of the apps that you're using because some of them are less judicious with how they use the data that they collect. But I'm a fan of pen and paper and just charting down how you feel like what felt easy, what was tricky, what would have made your day a bit easier, perhaps if it is a hard day? I give my clients lots of different kind of strategies working with things, but that's really the basics like are there any symptoms that are bothering you? How is your energy? What was your mood? Anything you struggled with that kind of thing?
Jameela [00:34:09] Yeah. I used the Clue app just to kind of give me a rough heads-up of when my periods coming, and it sends me a little reminder of sort of like, Hey, your periods coming, look out. I find that really handy because I get lost in my job and my life, and I forget. And then there's a moment where I suddenly want to kill everyone I live with, and I get this little alert and reminder of like, Hey, you're periods coming, chill the fuck out, maybe get away from people. And then it's really handy for me. However, when it comes to tracking my period, I just do it in notes on my phone and when I first started. For me, it was helpful just to start on day one of my period that just helped my brain to be like, OK, today I know, and this is the month I'm going to start tracking. So maybe that'll be helpful for you. Again, my new Notes app has started today of me tracking how I feel today, which is like shit, but also still excited to speak to Maisie. And so that could be a helpful way to start. You mentioned PDD earlier, but like a.
Maisie [00:35:19] PMDD. Yes, Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder.
Jameela [00:35:21] Can you explain that to me? Because a lot of my friends, only recently in their 30s, have just been diagnosed with this and have spent their entire lives not knowing that this was going on and beating themselves up and kind of gaslighting themselves for decades and not knowing that this is what was happening. What is it?
Maisie [00:35:41] It's a big one. So premenstrual dysphoric disorder is an internationally recognized disorder, and it's it's often described as an extreme form of PMS. And so those people with PMDD, they might be listening, thinking, Oh no, it's way more than that because it really is. It can be a very extreme experience. And particularly, you know, when we think about the flow of hormones through each cycle around ovulation, you might be feeling fantastic, right like you're capable of anything. You've got estrogen. You've got testosterone. And then you ovulate and those hormones drop off quite rapidly and then you start producing another hormone progesterone. You also produce estrogen as well in the second half of the cycle. But PMDD, and this is really important for everyone listening is not about the levels of hormones. And this is a problem because a lot of medical professionals will refer women and people with periods who suspect they have PMDD for hormone testing. Hormone testing can be helpful. Not for PMDD, though. So if there are other issues going on, knowing hormone levels might be helpful, but premenstrual dysphoric disorder is about a sensitivity to hormones and changing hormone levels, and the way to diagnose it is for someone to have several months of cycle tracking data and to have a conversation. That's how they test it. That's how it should be diagnosed. But unfortunately, I hear from lots of people who have struggled to get a diagnosis and they have self-diagnosed, but they have been unable to get one from medical professionals because there is such a lack of awareness around it. Now within that, there are some doctors and medical professionals who are really passionate about this and doing an amazing job. So for anyone listening who is thinking that this is a bit of an issue for them and would like to know more about premenstrual dysphoric disorder, the website to go to is iapmd.org, which is the International Association for Premenstrual Disorders, because they have a database of medical professionals who are open or experts in PMDD. And they have lots of really helpful information and resources and support there.
Jameela [00:38:00] So what might be the signs that one has PMDD? What does that look like? How is it different? I know, like regarding hormones. It's your sensitivity to hormones. But what can it appear like for people just in case they haven't they've never heard of it before.
Maisie [00:38:13] Yeah, there's a range of different signs and symptoms that can come up, but one of the key ones is mood changes, premenstrually. And, you know, to the degree where it can be really impacting daily life, impacting relationships, your ability to work. I mean, you know, this is like we're talking about something that has significant impact on the quality of someone's life, and it carries a risk of suicide as well. So it's a really important topic to be raising awareness of because most people have not heard of it, so it's often like low mood, irritability, and for lots of people, this doesn't. This isn't currently listed as one of the kind of diagnostic criteria, but a lot of people experience really strong sensory sensitivities premenstrually. There's also a big crossover between PMDD and neurodiversity, and people can often be autistic and have PMDD. It's a fantastic combination, I say very sarcastically as someone who has both but also, you know, ADHD, you know, there's lots of different parallels here. But really, the best thing to do is someone to just check out the list of prevalent symptoms and see if it rings any bells.
Jameela [00:39:37] So my friend, one of my close friends who was diagnosed, I think last summer at 35 years old, she had been. I mean, it was just like out of control mood swings. Do they have to be very, very extreme mood swings in order for you to to know that you have PMDD? Or can it be something as simple as like how I don't know fucking irritable I am and how depressed I am and how hopeless I feel because I really feel like hopeless in the three days. I feel so overwhelmed by everything. I feel freezing cold and like. There's just no way that anything is ever going like, ever going to get better. Like, I really, it's just uncontrollable. And I always look at it as just a mental health thing. But is PMDD very, very extreme? Or can it happen in ways that feel more kind of insular like mine doesn't necessarily come out onto other people? I think because I'm hyper aware of it and terrified of making anyone's day bad, but I keep all of mine wrapped up inside, and so it feels smaller than what my friend described. But is there a kind of spectrum of PMDD symptoms or is that is what I like I'm describing more just kind of regular PMS.
Maisie [00:40:48] Well, that's the thing, it is a spectrum. And this is why getting that data, keeping track of things is important. And also, I just think generally we're pretty shit at going to doctors and talking about these things. And what I would love is for anyone who's experiencing these kind of things, you know, regardless of how we could classify it to just get in the habit of starting to have a conversation with qualified medical professionals who are able to support you in a diagnosis and forming treatment strategies and getting help. Because too often we do exactly what you've just described becoming very insular, keeping it to ourselves and just like trying to get through it and just like clinging on for when our period starts and then like, Oh, I'm back again and we just like live for the parts of the cycle when life maybe feels a bit easier for us and then we're just back into surviving the parts of the cycle that can feel fucking diabolical. So it's I think if anyone's having that kind of experience then start having conversations with someone who can help you.
Jameela [00:41:51] I mean, I find it quite staggering that I've been going to a gynecologist since my mid-20s, and no one's ever mentioned anything like this to me, not even about tracking. They've always just kind of whenever I've told them this, these slightly more extreme symptoms I have or ask for advice or questions. They just sort of have always, especially in Britain. I found, like fobbed me off. We're like, Well, that's just your period. And then you walk out just feeling like you've been fussy or a nuisance for trying to ask for help. So I do also want to remind people that sometimes that your gynecologist and not you, that not all gynecologists are made equal and not all of them have a great level of concern as to making us as comfortable as possible. So don't feel like you've been wrong or a nuisance for asking these questions. If you do get fobbed off, maybe just change your gynecologist.
Maisie [00:42:43] Yeah, this is the thing and you know, and give that feedback. Like, look, I came with this and you didn't really respond to me in the way that I was hoping for. And, you know, particularly when we're talking about, well, all of these kinds of issues, whether it's like severe period pain, endometriosis, maybe someone's cycles just gone completely awol and they don't know why and they're getting no periods. Maybe it's like in relation to mental health. And, you know, all of these things, pelvic floor issues. There's a long history of us not being listened to and being dismissed and just told, you know, have a glass of wine and relax or well go and do this or well your only option is the pill or, you know, and it's just it's. You're right you know we started off this conversation saying, you know, gynecology hasn't really caught up with our needs. And I think that's just. That really hit me when you said that because I'm like, yeah, it really hasn't. And there were people out there trying, but there are so many issues that affect us. And there is just. Lack of awareness, lack of education, you know, for us as patients and for medical professionals and lack of funding, lack of treatment strategies. There's just and there can be so many barriers to actually accessing and in any kind of health care.
Jameela [00:44:14] Yeah. Dr. Jen Gunter has also been on this podcast a few times. She has a book called The Vagina Bible, and it's kind of exists in the same sort of world as yours. And I'm so grateful to both of you for doing that work to help destigmatize and like the subject, but also to embolden us to fight for just our basic fucking needs to be met. It's really like, it's really quite mad, isn't it? What we are having to contend with people who have periods. And I also wanted to just point out that I really appreciate how much you make an effort to to remind people this is people who have periods rather than just women centric. I know we've been bringing up women a lot, but that's in the context mostly of the fact that I think had this not been seen as such a gendered issue periods that they wouldn't be so unsympathetic. I think if this is something that cis men were to deal with or that we acknowledge is something that multiple genders can have, I think we would have taken it more seriously and taken more measures to help and placate and educate. But I really appreciate the fact that you are very trans aware and and very. Correct and decent in you're kind of upholding of that throughout your podcast and your your book because not a lot of people do that, and it's it's really it means a lot to some of my trans friends.
Maisie [00:45:34] Yeah, it's really important, I think, you know, to use language that is inclusive. And, you know, like we have, it is just a a hard and fast rule, like I have an online membership and it's just like, you know, it's like no gendered language. When you post saying, Hey, ladies, then you're going to have me or Rebecca, how amazing community manager going, Hey, can you change the language on this post? Because we really want it to be inclusive an inclusive space. And, you know, people have had problems with me for doing that. And say, well, you're quite aggressive in how you talk about your membership being trans inclusive. And if you're a TERF, which is a trans exclusionary, radical feminist, then please don't join up. I'm like yeah, of course I'm going to be a bit aggressive in saying that because I want to keep those people out. It's really important to me that I am protecting the community and doing what I can to keep a safe, inclusive space. And so, yeah, it's it's just and I have to thank actually Bloomsbury my publishers because when I am when I submitted my proposal for Period Power, it was all women this women that women this women that. But in the back of my head, I knew I wanted it to be a gender inclusive book and to talk about people with periods and to use more inclusive language. And so when I handed in the final manuscript, I was a bit like, Oh shit, are they going to come back to me and go, what's all this. They never commented on it. It was just like, great.
Jameela [00:47:07] That's so great.
Maisie [00:47:09] They loved it. And it's it's always so wonderful to have the back up of your publishers like that.
Jameela [00:47:13] Can we talk a little bit about perimenopause and what I should be expecting and everyone else who's you know, near my age, I know it can happen at various different ages. But what is perimenopause? What is coming? Help me.
Maisie [00:47:31] Yeah, so menopause itself is one day. So it's simply marks the one year anniversary of when you had your last menstrual period. So let's say at the age of fifty one, it's been 12 months since you last had your period you officially go through menopause on that day and then your post-menopausal. But the time before that, when you still have a cycle, might be changing in frequency and becoming more frequent and then eventually less frequent. You are perimenopausal. So this is the years can be even the decade before your periods stop when you still have a cycle. But you start to experience symptoms of perimenopause, which are long and varied because, like I said, hormones affect everything. But I am about to turn forty one, and I would say that I am like tiptoeing my way into perimenopause because my cycle has got shorter. It used to be 28 days. Now it can vary between twenty three twenty six on the whole. And you know, I started to want to stick my feet out of the duvet to be able to fall asleep at night and, you know, sometimes getting night sweats, these kinds of things. So that's often how it begins, is that the cycle gets a bit shorter and you start to get symptoms around the time when your period is due. And then this basically continues. And then at some point your cycle starts to get further apart and less frequent and maybe just having them a period once in a while. And you have less cycles where you ovulate and then eventually you go 12 months and you go through menopause.
Jameela [00:49:21] And that must make tracking a bit of a fucking nightmare. You almost have to be more diligent. Right? I mean, so I mean, everything's changing of cycles all over the place.
Maisie [00:49:30] Yeah, it does make tracking a bit trickier, but it's still worthwhile doing so. I will just I will just put like a whole week in my calendar for when my period is due. Just period due in capital, something that's on the top of the calendar so that I can see like, OK, I'm going to have to kind of play it by ear a bit and see how things go. But I think really important because to be tracking, because we can really notice the emergence of symptoms and start to notice what's going on. So I have a client at the moment who has like been hoping to go through menopause for some time. She's been quite eager to go through it, and she's finally hit the phase where her instead of having a period that comes like maybe two weeks after the last one. Or maybe it's four weeks, maybe it's six, but you know, there's heavy bleeding and exhaustion and things going on. And then now she's like, Oh, I haven't had one in three months and having a little bit of one. But the you know, she's in like a different hormonal experience now because often at the start of perimenopause, our hormone levels are actually quite high. And we might be producing more estrogen in a cycle than we ever have. And that's where we can get symptoms of excess estrogen, like a swollen tender breasts or tender chest, bloating, irritability, rage, all sorts of things like that going on.
Jameela [00:50:57] Very cool. Yeah. And this can last for like, very varied amounts of time. So I always thought because I was, you know, super ignorant and the menopause, I'd never even heard the term perimenopause. So I just thought the menopause is like this 10 year period where someone loses their grip on their life, because that's what I've seen in my own family. All the women in my family have severe like way worse than me PDD, and therefore I don't know if there's any correlation between this but all had like quite violent menopause that went on for years where honestly, it felt like like we were never going to see the real them again. You know, it was just, you know, it was terrifying to watch a complete shift in someone's kind of personality. So is that perimenopause? Because that's the period leading up to,
Maisie [00:51:46] yeah, that's perimenopause. And, you know, people who have experienced some kind of reproductive depression in their lifetime
Jameela [00:51:53] Is that like postnatal.
Maisie [00:51:55] Yeah, it can be postnatal depression. It could be depression on the pill, for example, could be premenstrual dysphoric disorder. They are more likely to experience depression as these hormonal shifts are going on. But it is often a time when you know confidence can plummet a sense of identity changes. And you know, all this is not just hormonally driven. We want to look at what's going on in the context of someone's life and how that is impacting them as well. But it is this time of. Very real, it's it's very confrontational. We have to confront ourselves and confront what's happened in our lives, confront our future, confront our health. And so it's. It's very fiery. I know one of my clients saying to me, I literally feel on fire and she didn't mean hot flushes like she just felt like burning with rage. And you know, I think this is often the age. It certainly is for me where we realize the extent of our female socialization and the impact that that has had.
Jameela [00:53:02] I mean, I used to hear my uncles just say all kinds of really derogatory shit when I was younger. Uncles and their friends like talking about the fact that, well, you know, the reason men leave women for younger women. You know, once they, you know, marriage, I don't know when they both get to their late 40s or 50s just because, quote unquote, women go mad. And so we want to go out with someone more balanced. And that was the kind of justification of not seeing someone through or supporting them through this like unbelievable kind of medical phenomenon that they're undergoing.
Maisie [00:53:35] But also, it's like, Well, how about we take a look at the reasons for why this has happened like all the unpaid labor. The women and those socialized as female tend to do, all the emotional labor we do. The gross imbalance in what women's life is like compared to a man's typically and all the people pleasing that we do, the lack of taking care of ourselves because we're prioritizing everyone else and that might be in your home. But it also might be in your workplace as well. All the disadvantages we're at in terms of earnings, work hours, childcare, etc, etc. you know.
Jameela [00:54:16] Not feeling safe fucking anywhere. The constant anxiety of that.
Maisie [00:54:20] Yeah, exactly. And the toll of that is huge. And that's why, like so much of my work now is looking at all of these things because it's like we can't talk about health and we can't talk about the cycle unless we're also having this conversation with all of these things. And we're looking at improving boundaries, dropping people, people, people pleasing tendencies and learning how to put ourselves first. And I think, you know, if we learn how to do that from an earlier age and I really mean earlier, like young kids, if we learn to, then maybe we won't be having such a fucking issue when we're in perimenopause and like, yes, there would still be these hormonal changes going on. But would they be so debilitating? Because all the women I speak to are like, Well, if I'm just left alone in a room by myself and I can just eat some food and not take care of anyone else. I'm actually a lot better than there will still be some issue. But for the most part, you know, they tend to know what they need and like, that's true of me as well. Now I just don't want to deal with all the humans. I've had a lifetime of dealing with other humans and taking care of them because, you know, socialized as females, and my job is therefore to look pretty and take care of everyone else. And now I'm like, Gee, I just want to take care of myself.
Jameela [00:55:42] Amen. Amen. I learned this summer for the first time in like 15 years. I don't have an anxiety disorder. I was told by doctors because I have such chronic anxiety that I have to be medicated and I have, you know, and I only started medication like a year ago. But I have a chronic anxiety disorder like GAD or whatever. I don't. I'm not naturally anxious. I'm not naturally neurotic when I'm on my own and left to my own devices. And just living my life according to what's better for me, I'm not at all anxious. Like I honestly like, I looked 10 years younger. I felt 10 years younger. It was very like market the difference in me. And so I implore anyone who can is so fucking hard if you're a parent, a single parent in particular. I know that this isn't as easy as like being obviously I'm like talking about a very unrelatable situation of being able to be shipped off to another city on my own. But trying to find micro ways to carve out moments for yourself can really change your experience, not just for you, but even for the people around you. You have a book out about perimenopause.
Maisie [00:56:45] Yeah. Have so Period Power's the first book, Perimenopause Power is the second book. But you know, for anyone interested in this stuff, I also have the Period Power podcast, which is, you know, that's where I talk about a lot of these things. I've actually got an episode, I think coming out this week where I talk about the very issue that we've just been talking about here. And in that I was like give the example of how for me is really important that I don't go to any kids birthday parties. I have a five year old and it's a rule in our house that I don't go to kids birthday parties with them because it's sensory hell for me and I'm autistic. And, you know, it's like I was pushing myself to do it thinking, Oh, I'm his mom, I should go. And then, you know, I've got to make chitchat with people, which is not my strong suit, even lovely people and all these noises and things going on and what would happen is I would just be so dysregulated after that that I would have to hide from my family who I love for the rest of the weekend in order to recover from that. And so this is like what you were just talking about, like the impact of us taking care of ourselves and me saying, you know what, I'm going to skip the birthday parties. My partner, his dad, can take him and I'll just be here ready to hang out when you guys get home, so much better.
Jameela [00:58:04] This week, Masie and I talk about how to talk to your gynecologist and the importance of finding a gynecologist that you trust, because let's be honest. Not all gynecologists are created equal. So if you are enjoying the episode and want more tools for talking to your doctor, then you should also listen to our episodes with Dr. Jen Gunter. Dr. Jen Gunter is an incredible gynecologist who helps us learn about the do's and don'ts of feminine hygiene HPV polycystic ovarian syndrome, how to talk to your doctor about pap smears, and so, so much more. Go and check it out. She's amazing, and I've learned so much from her, and I hope you do as well. I want to talk to you about your diagnosis not too long ago of autism. How that came about and how that diagnosis has changed your life.
Maisie [00:58:58] Yeah, because it really has changed things. So I started to suspect that I might be autistic. I basically someone that I know had been diagnosed as autistic, and when they posted about it on Facebook, I was like, Really? But you can make eye contact with me and like, I'm pretty sure you can empathize. So basically, I was just not believing that they were autistic. And then they had been posting things up about autism, and I clicked on one of the links and it took me to this corner of the internet, where a woman who's listed she'd been working with autistic females for decades, and she listed all the common traits that she had seen in autism in females. Not a diagnostic test, but just what she'd seen over the years, and I started reading it and. Like, you know, when you have one of those moments where it's like everything in the world gets dialed down.
Jameela [00:59:57] I remember you saying, I remember you saying that you were reading it out. You're reading out the list next to your husband and you didn't tell him the context of the list. And he was like, I don't know what you're reading, but whatever that is, that's you. And so you felt very affirmed in that moment because he was able to like, I don't know, like you, you recognized that you weren't just you weren't able to be to gaslight yourself in that moment, essentially because a witness to the majority of your life was with no context confirming that those are symptoms that you experience. And similarly to you, you know, like I think before hearing your podcast and and listening to the way you talk about it I had a huge, like, potentially ablest misunderstanding of autism because autism representation is so sparse. And so it was something that we mostly see, you know, the kind of Rainman version of autism. It's mostly the thing that we talk about in men or little boys. We rarely ever hear about it in girls. The kind of understanding is that boys are much more likely to be autistic than girls. And I'm not saying that that can't be true or anything, but I'm just saying that we don't really have like Greta Thunberg is one of the only representations of an autistic girl, right, that we have. And so in my head, I had always believed that, you know, that eye contact somebody with you or they wouldn't be able to have social skills or, you know, I, although it was it was a very extreme and ignorant understanding of autism. And so can you explain why that is that? I mean, aside from just the general misunderstanding, why in particular, when it comes to women, autism presents somewhat differently from boys. Can you talk more about that and why therefore, it's been easier to be missed and people don't women, but also people socialize as female, don't find out until later in life.
Maisie [01:01:54] Yeah because it does tend to be more. Well, there's a lot of late diagnosis going on right now, and that's often because women, you know, have got kids who are maybe being diagnosed and it's being picked up there. And then because neurodiversity can, you know, there can be a genetic component there as well. So then they'll start suddenly thinking, Oh, well, actually, I have these same issues as well, and then they end up getting diagnosed. But it can just be missed for decades. Like if I if that person that I know hadn't posted, I probably wouldn't have known for, however many more years. But I do think the experience of starting to go through perimenopause can have an impact as well. And it's like that can be the thing that really emphasizes someone's experience of their neurodiversity.
Jameela [01:02:43] Why?
Maisie [01:02:43] I think, well, I can only really speak about my experience with this, but for me, the sensory sensitivities are just so much stronger now and
Jameela [01:02:55] Because everything's amplified.
Maisie [01:02:57] Yes, massively and especially with a five year old who has a lot to say and kind of doesn't stop chatting for the minute he walks, wakes up to the minute he goes to sleep. And you know, I'm over here going, Oh, just a bit of silence would be nice, please. Yeah, it makes for an interesting parent child dynamic. But um yeah, the I mean, the other thing that helped me to realize is when my first book came out, I stopped drinking for three months because, you know, you never know when you're going to get the call to be on a podcast or do some media stuff. And I just knew that alcohol really impacted my mental health, so I even just one drink would have a knock on effect. So I thought, I'm going to stop drinking for three months. And what I noticed was that in social environments, I was finding it much harder to be in them and like kind of struggling to make eye contact really thrown by the environment, you know, like being in a restaurant, other people's conversation, music, trying to talk to someone across the table. And I just noticed that it was really affecting me. So this is interesting. I never thought I'd be someone who would have any kind of social anxiety, but it turns out it wasn't that it was just being autistic. And the thing is that autistic people can have huge amounts of empathy. In actual fact, a lot of autistic people will say they over empathize and connect really strongly with characters and other people. And that's been really true for me. That's like films that I can't watch because I feel like I have. I become that character and like, taken on their experience. And, you know, that served me really well in my work, being able to empathize with people and to really understand what they're going on, what's going on for them. And also we we don't know.
Jameela [01:04:49] And so can we talk about the reason for why we don't often identify the symptoms in people socialize as female because there's a huge part of that dynamic that is down to our conditioning, our social conditioning correct, like we are socially conditioned to blend in to fake social cues, to fake social abilities that maybe we don't actually internally feel there's a social pressure that people socialize as men don't necessarily have. Can you talk a bit more about that and the patriarchy of it all?
Maisie [01:05:24] Yeah. So there's something that autistic females particularly do, which is called masking, where we just literally put on a mask to get through our day and to get through particularly interactions or particular parts of our life. So for me, I really struggled to make phone calls, and I put this up on my Instagram Stories yesterday and people that the reaction was so huge because I really struggled to make a phone call and it's something that I have to kind of I have to write down what I'm going to say. And this is literally if I'm just ordering food. So I have to write down what I'm going to say in order to feel ready to make that phone call. But it can also show up. I'm trying to think what are the other ones. So whenever I post that people just like what that's an autistic thing like you never would have known, but it's because so you know, firstly, like the lack of education and lack of awareness out there. But it's also, like you said, just this conditioning the we are there to exist for the pleasure of others, and we have to always be thinking about how other people are thinking and feeling and not about ourselves. And so we just socialized to prioritize other people's wellbeing over our own and says what often happens in people who are autistic and who end up getting so stressed out, burnt out and, you know, needing to withdraw basically. And probably to a lot of autistic people that six months away that you described sounds like heaven because, you know, just normal daily life can get too much. And a lot of that is because we are conditioned to present a certain way to others.
Jameela [01:07:09] Totally. I remember when we first spoke on the phone, you sort of like, if I cry out the blue and it was absolutely great and fine, but you were like, Have you ever looked into neuro divergency in yourself. I think you put it probably in a much more delicate way. But you ask me that just like point blank over the phone, you were great over the phone, by the way. Just so you know.
Maisie [01:07:30] Thank you.
Jameela [01:07:31] And you said that to me. And I got off the phone and James was with me. He was like, What? and I was like, I just spoke to Maisie Hill. And she she suggested that I go and look into neurodivergence because she thinks I might have it and and then we ended up listening to that episode of your podcast, and I'm by no means trying to diagnose myself with anything here, but we listened to the episode on autism and he said, Not me. He was like, Well, that's you. So I have no idea. I haven't gone to a doctor. I wouldn't even know what kind of specialists to go to. But the point I was going to make is that there's also been a lot of conversation about how because I mean, even some of the things you're describing, they do also fall under the umbrella of social anxiety or PTSD that might make you uncomfortable in certain scenarios. So it's such a kind of gray area for some people, and therefore that can also make it hard to differentiate between like, is this a mental health thing or is this an autism thing? Is this a trauma thing or is this an autism? Was a neuro divergence? That is quite complicated, correct?
Maisie [01:08:42] It is quite complicated. I mean, some people out there say that all autistic people will have experienced trauma of some kind because they have had to fit into a neurotypical world when they own neurodiverse. And so there will be experience of that, you know, whether or not that's true or not. You know, it's up for discussion, but it's, you know, I like to talk about it with people and say, Well, you know, if you do have some of these things and some of it's like ringing true for you, then I would definitely look into it because there is that propensity for us to not be diagnosed and for it to be missed. And I recently had a 63 year old woman who listened to my podcast, get in touch to say that she'd gone and got diagnosed, and she was finally like understanding all of her life through the lens of knowing that she is autistic. So I think it's just helpful for us to be talking about it more and more and to be bringing it more into the discussion. But I think when someone is thinking well. Is it neurodiversity, is it not again going into
Jameela [01:09:53] maybe it's Maybelline? Yeah, sorry. That was inappropriate. I beg your pardon.
Maisie [01:10:03] By the way, this is also something that autistic people can do, say inappropriate things.
Jameela [01:10:18] Fuckin hell if saying inappropriate things as a marker, then then I definitely.
Maisie [01:10:23] But it's funny. My partner calls me the Vibe killer. He's like, he'll be chatting away about things like if we have people over and then I just bring like the research and the facts and just completely kill the vibe. But I make my contribution in my own way. But I'm like, I'm pretty lucky. I'm I'm really lucky because autistic people tend to have special interests that they like to talk about. So my special interests are the menstrual cycle and hormones, and just being fascinated with human brains and being an entrepreneur. And so I'm really fortunate because both of my special interests are what people are interested in me for. So I get to talk about the things that interests me all the time. Whereas, you know, if your special interest is, I don't know. Season three of the Wonder Years or whatever. Then you have less opportunity to talk about that. But you know, when we talk about autism is a spectrum. People often make the mistake of thinking, Well, everyone's all on the spectrum. My everyone's a little bit autistic. That's not true. That's not what we mean by being on the spectrum. It's not,
Jameela [01:11:34] And also some people think, Yeah, I was going to say, like, it's like how autistic you are versus how little.
Maisie [01:11:40] Yeah. And it's not that at all. What we mean by the autism spectrum is which are the things that impact you. So I'm really affected by sensory things, and I have strong special interests and there are some social related things that I find challenging.
Jameela [01:11:59] But I'm not being funny. But is a terror of velvet a sign?
Maisie [01:12:03] Well, interestingly, yes. Well, I I mean, everyone is saying like, please hear the sarcasm in my voice. Yes. Autistic people are capable of sort of sarcasm as well. But I would say, yes, like that because I have trouble touching my fridge. By touching the the handle of the fridge. And I remember going to buy it in the shop and I was like testing out how it fell. And the guy selling it to me was being really weird. Like why? And I was like, Oh, this feels a bit weird. And in that and he said to me, it's just steel and I just thought, Oh, he's this is a man. And he knows his fridges, right? Because this is his job. So I'm just going to diminish myself and not listening. Listen to myself when I know that touching this brushed steel is hell for me.
Jameela [01:12:55] touching steel is awful. Like it makes your teeth feel soft, like it's terrible. I keep licking my teeth while you've been talking about it because like it makes my teeth feel weird. Steel is just objectively awful.
Maisie [01:13:09] Yeah well I got this bloody fridge and I really wish I hadn't, and I can't touch the door. I have something wrapped around it so that I can touch it. So these sensitivities are there can be sound. You know, it shows up in all sorts of ways.
Jameela [01:13:24] Well you mentioned a children's birthday party like, that's a lot of screaming and laughing and noise and banging. And then you also talk about struggling with small talk. Again, I think a lot of the women I know struggle with that, like a lot of kind of like high achieving, very kind of socially capable women, but they really, really struggle with it. And you just, you know, you're just told, Oh, you're just not very good at small talk, but maybe there is something more to it for a lot of these people.
Maisie [01:13:50] Yeah. And it's there is some interesting research I read here I go with interesting research.
Jameela [01:13:55] This is the place. This is the place for you to roam free. Give us your best.
Maisie [01:14:02] It's autistic people can do chit chat, but often it comes after a deep connection so we can, like, go in with the special interests and feel connected with someone and then we can do chit chat. Whereas for neurotypicals, it tends to be the other way they need to chit chat first and then that takes them on to the deeper, more meaningful conversations.
Jameela [01:14:22] What does a small talk first make you feel like?
Maisie [01:14:27] What does it feel like? I'll just stand there thinking, what the fuck is going on? Like, I I don't get this and I have no interest in it. I'm sure you're lovely, but I don't know what to do with myself, and I don't know what to ask. I just feel lost like they have a map of a conversation, and I don't get to see the map.
Jameela [01:14:47] That's why you went straight in with me of like have you ever been tested for autism? Just got straight into the deep end. I love it. I just felt like we had such an amazing connection over the phone. I think we even texted each other after it's been like that was such a good vibe. Yeah, because you just went like we went straight into the most personal thoughts of each other because it was a pre-interview for this podcast that we kind of had to go there really fast. But yeah, that maybe that's why you found that phone conversation. I presume you found it, like, somewhat comfortable.
Maisie [01:15:17] Yeah, it was great. Afterwards, I was like, Well, that felt really good to my nervous system, and I always pay attention to that. Like, how is my nervous system responding to other people and sometimes. And I think this is like one of the real powers of being neurodivergent or, you know, being sensitive to these things are and that's the thing is often like people talk about a highly sensitive person, HSP, which is like, does the rounds on Instagram and things. But I'm secretly like, Oh, are all these females really highly sensitive or are they neurodivergent? Because, it's like being highly sensitive is acceptable, but like being autistic is not so. And I just
Jameela [01:16:00] It's considered to be quite like socially female, being a highly sensitive person like that it's kind of a given and there's something wrong with you if you aren't highly sensitive to everyone else and their need.
Maisie [01:16:11] Hey, I think I secretly think a lot of the people who are highly sensitive are actually autistic.
Jameela [01:16:17] Right? Again, something that often isn't equated with autism in like kind of like the public hemisphere and discussion around autism. It's like, oh, there's no awareness of other people, no empathy, no sensitivity, like completely you're just on one one track of your own train of thought. And that's that. And no one else is. Whereas actually you're saying and and you know, I've read into this now science says that actually you can be extremely sensitive, almost overwhelmingly sensitive to the point where being in a I have a few friends girlfriends who have been diagnosed recently in their late 30s with autism, who were like, Oh, this is why I can't cope with the dinner of more than five people. This is why I can't handle restaurants, I can't handle restaurants. All of my food has to be eaten in like a quiet room with just a few people. And I seem like I'm having a good time when it's like anyone more than that. But I'm just screaming inside and my boyfriend starts to recognize that now. And sometimes he'll come over to me if we're agitated because I can't afford, I can't because of my job. I can't. And again, I'm not. This is not me saying I have autism or not. I'm just explaining that I have this social struggle, and my boyfriend will now notice it in me that I'm struggling, even though I think I'm presenting like a perfectly coping face. and he'll just come over to me and be like, You don't have to talk to anyone, by the way. You just don't have to speak. You can just sit back and watch everyone. You don't have to participate. And just being given that permission honestly just sometimes makes me cry because I've never known that I could just chill the fuck out.
Maisie [01:17:54] Yeah, and that's the thing is
Jameela [01:17:55] you dont have to participate.
Maisie [01:17:57] It's so alien to us, and we're all kind of standing around waiting for permission from someone. We just have to get in the habit of giving ourselves that permission.
Jameela [01:18:05] And so you being able to know this about yourself, and I really hope this does encourage anyone out there has maybe suspected this or started to see a bit more of this discussion, but maybe felt embarrassed or stigmatized. This is nothing to be embarrassed about. This is just something where similarly, with understanding your periods, understanding how your brain or your body works is only ever empowering and helps you figure out how to set like helpful boundaries for yourself. And I think that's so important for people out there to understand that we even those of us socialize as female can dare to set our own boundaries according to our specific needs. We would never tell someone else to not investigate symptoms or to not do what is best for them. And yet we constantly tell ourselves that we do not have permission, that we have to just be stoic, and that really has to change. Otherwise, we're all going to have a shit menopause. As Maisie said, no I'm kidding.
Maisie [01:18:58] Yes thats it.
Jameela [01:18:58] But but it will harm our mental health in the long term and do people ever make you feel like what a fussy high maintenance person? Or do you find people are generally quite sympathetic? And should we have to have a diagnosis for people to be sympathetic? What about the basic fucking likes and wants and needs?
Maisie [01:19:18] This is a good point. I think the tendency is for me to think I'm being a bit extra more than anyone else because again, socialized as female. So like, oh, don't make a fuss. Who are you to think that you can, you know, command this of other people, etc., etc. But like, it's for everyone's benefit. Like my partner just always wants to know more. And you know, he's so on board with it. And he's just like, like recently we went to a gig. He bought these tickets and. When he was like, Oh, I got two tickets, I don't know who I'm going to go with, and I was like, Well, how about me? He's like, Where will you be in your cycle? I was like my period is going to be due. He's like, How do you think you'll be with sensory stuff at a gig when your period is due? That is a really great question. Thank you for asking. And but it just meant that, you know, when we're having this communication, whether it's with ourselves or whether it's with other people, then we can. We were able to make decisions because because he asked me that because we had that conversation, I was able to think, OK, how can I take care of myself in the days running up to this so that I'm able to then? Go to the gig and enjoy myself.
Jameela [01:20:28] Can I get him on the podcast?
Maisie [01:20:30] I'm sure he'd love to. If you want to have a conversation about jazz music,
Jameela [01:20:36] I think it'd be so interesting to hear from a sympathetic partner of someone who is like, sensitive to someone's autism or neurodivergent needs. And also, someone's period I think that's fucking fascinating. You're so, you're so knowledgeable. And the fact that you are so kind of self-taught and self investigative is so inspiring to me that this isn't you're not a trained gynecologist per se, but this is like a a field that you decided to become an expert in. And your work is so thorough and plentiful and empowering. Mostly, your delivery is so empowering of so matter of fact, your podcast is so excellent. I'm so happy that you exist. I've really thought you might have changed my life and a lot of other people's lives through your work, and I'm so excited to read your book about perimenopause. Um, Maisie I'll have to let you go soon because we've been chatting for an hour and a half and I could chat to you for 19 more hours. Maisie, could you kindly tell me before you go, what do you weigh?
Maisie [01:21:40] I weigh. The existence of all the women who have come before me and all the wise women I have got to train with and benefit from. And all of my clients, the stories and all the strangers stories who come up to me in cafes and tell me about their cycle. By the importance of sharing stories and sharing knowledge. It's just so important to me and. Everything I'm able to do is because of all the stories that have been shared with me and all of the wisdom that has been shared with me from others. So that is what I weigh.
Jameela [01:22:27] Oh, fucking hell. Your gonna make me cry now, both weeping on the podcast. I love that that meant so much to you, and I love that answer. And I feel exactly the same way. We are so lucky. For other women and for the women before us, and for all the people before us from whom we've been able to learn. You're amazing. You are one of those people for me and for other people. So we weigh everything that we learned from you in the last hour and a half and also your books and podcasts. Thank you so much. You're a legend. Please come back.
Maisie [01:23:04] I would be happy to come back. Thank you so much for having me. There's been a lot of fun.
Jameela [01:23:09] Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnigan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson, and the beautiful music you're hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven't already, please rate review and subscribe to the show. It's a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything. Check it out. You can get a free month for Stitcher Premium by going Stitcher.com/premium and using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly, over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543 or email us what you weigh at IWeighPodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our fabulous listeners.
Listener [01:24:03] I weigh in my own truth, whatever that may be, I weigh conscience and consciousness and figuring out my own way on my own path in the single disfigured life.